CASP conversation with Twicebaked in Washington

Video by Steve Hyde

by Dominic Corva, Executive Director

We are incredibly grateful to Pam Dyer, Twicebaked in Washington, for visiting our office on Tuesday, January 27 for a long form ethnographic conversation/interview. Pam has been a friend of ours since last year’s Cannabis Freedom March, where we first began to learn about her as a “cannabis stakeholder,” as the legislators put it. Here at CASP, we like to unpack such categorical boxes so we can understand how cannabis is social policy, embedded in wider contexts, since what’s at stake for cannabis is what’s at stake for society. To do that we have to know a lot more about the human beings whose lives and livelihoods are constructed in complex relationship with the plant, rather than simple categorical boxes like “recreationist” or even “patient.” People like Pam who have been around the plant their whole lives — including childhood, gasp — have something important to tell us about how to make peace with a plant.

The difference between an ethnographic interview and other ways of interviewing people is that the interviewer is looking for ways in which individual’s stories shed partial light on collective ones. Life stories tell us something about how individuals make choices, but not under conditions of their own choosing. Instead, they face landscapes of choice that are shared with different others making similar and/or different choices under similar cultural, economic and political conditions. The Twicebaked story intersects with shared social particularities around, among other things: chronic lifelong pain related to scoliosis; lifework associated with personal fitness and nutrition training; suburban British Columbia childhood; women’s spaces; and most recently, working in the newly out-of-the-closet cannabis landscapes which include but are not limited to legal ones. Twicebaked’s choices in these conditions for choosing are her own, but they provide us with a grounded peek into how others with similar conditions have developed their identities as cannabis stakeholders, or not.

What can you learn from a conversation with Twicebaked, then? You can learn about the content of her choices as well as the conditions others in similar positions face. Right now, the most timely combination of the two might be her account of challenges to others interested in following her along the path of raw cannabis preparation and consumption as part of a holistic diet. As the discussion about how to regulate cannabis markets develops, the question of access to and distribution of fresh, organic whole plants to juice has yet to take its place at the legislative table. Yet this may be the most healthy direction for cannabis markets to develop. “Health and wellness” cannabis preparation defies existing regulatory definitions like “recreational” and “medical,” and have the greatest potential for creating new kinds of markets for cannabis consumption and its associated potential tax revenues.

With that said, many thanks to Pam Dyer for her participation and engagement. She is an important part of the CASP solidarity network, and we have much common ground. Special thanks also go out to Steve Hyde, our tireless and creative videographer.

AUDIO TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Corva: All right. Dominic Corva here at CASP headquarters with Pam Dyer getting the Errol Morris treatment from Steve Hyde.

Pam Dyer: Hello.

Dr. Corva: Welcome, welcome Pam. I am going to start you out… Perhaps you remember we talked before that a lot of my work is ethnography and ethnographic research even when it’s instrumental for other purposes. So while this interview is both great way to get some content on you, it’s a way for me to kind of add to my cannabis ethnography. I always start these questions one way. How do you come to encounter cannabis in the first place?

Pam Dyer: I mean the first place ever in my whole entire life?

Dr. Corva: Yeah.

Pam Dyer: Or the way I am using it currently?

Dr. Corva: Well, both.

Pam Dyer: All right. First time ever in my whole entire life, I was 13 and smoked a joint with a girlfriend. The way that I am using it currently, I started using it as in medical marijuana probably three years ago when I started having really bad back problems.

Dr. Corva: Right. Related to your scoliosis?

Pam Dyer: Yes. I have a neuromuscular disorder, I did have scoliosis, I have migraines, I have an autoimmune disorder and I think I can go on for a while.

Dr. Corva: Yeah. Let’s take those two answers actually and get a little bit deeper on that for a moment. At 13, you already had scoliosis, yeah?

Pam Dyer: Yes.

Dr. Corva: But the context of your smoking a joint wasn’t “this is gonna help my scoliosis?”

Pam Dyer: Right.

Dr. Corva: You weren’t of aware of that necessarily, right?

Pam Dyer: I was just having fun.

Dr. Corva: Yeah, having fun. Recreation is what they like to say. Where were you geographically as well?

Pam Dyer: Like in the world?

Dr. Corva: Yeah.

Pam Dyer: I was in a little town in British Columbia, Canada.

Dr. Corva: Okay, all right. So, establishing the location, were you in the suburb spreads?

Pam Dyer: Yes. I might have been in a trailer park even. And that’s even a two-storey.

Dr. Corva: All right. So, I guess what was the cultural situation there at that time? What you were doing, you were doing something that seemed like a really big deal?

Pam Dyer: It didn’t seem like a big deal. I had gotten like 20 joints from a friend, a kid at school. I was helping him in English class and he was giving me marijuana and… And so he gave me like 20 joints, and so that’s what we had at weekend with my friend and we just went into our home shed and that’s where we were doing it. So, it didn’t seem like we were doing anything bad because a lot of other kids were doing it but it kind of I mean we knew that our parents wouldn’t approve, so you know.

Dr. Corva: Right. But it wasn’t like murdering someone, right?

Pam Dyer: No.

Dr. Corva: It wasn’t like that, right?

Pam Dyer: No. It wasn’t even like getting drunk, you know.

Dr. Corva: Right. So, you know, what’s so special in that for me is how you got your cannabis, which is that you were the smart kid at school tutoring somebody else. In exchange for your electoral guidance, he…

Pam Dyer: Well, and 20 bucks.

Dr. Corva: And 20 bucks. Okay. Okay. So, this is actually _____3:18…

Pam Dyer: I got a good deal though.

Dr. Corva: It’s good deal, 20 bucks for 20 joints. I were to take a long time before they get to that price level. This is great. So, this really flies against along the cultural stereotypes, so if you know the… _____03:35 kids smoking joints necessarily, although of course, that’s, you know, we got it from.

Pam Dyer: Right.

Dr. Corva: So, yeah… So, the social relation is like you know exchanges are very very important and interesting. Did you notice any effect on your scoliosis pain when you did that?

Pam Dyer: At 13, I wouldn’t have put that together. Like even in retrospect, I see that I used cannabis a lot in my 20s and when I look back I can definitely see that I am using it on a mental level to handle what was happening to me physically but I didn’t really understand how to use it like to maximize using it physically, yeah.

Dr. Corva: And what kinds of medications you had been on to deal with it in your lifetime?

Pam Dyer: Anti-inflammatories, muscle relaxers, I don’t know… you know stuff like that. Stuff that they put you on for chronic issues that really just kind of help you deal with the symptoms, they don’t actually take the problems away.

Dr. Corva: Right. Right.

Pam Dyer: And sometimes create worse problems.

Dr. Corva: So, let’s talk about some side effects maybe.

Pam Dyer: Oh like feeling stoned when you’re on like pills. So feeling stoned, having digestive issues afterwards, having to pay attention what’s going on with your liver, that kind of thing.

Dr. Corva: Well, because it’s toxic for your liver.

Pam Dyer: Yeah. And so like at age 20 or something like that, I was told it’s probably what you’re going to have just… you’re going to be taking these your whole life and that’s not really something that at age of 20 year old I was willing to accept.

Dr. Corva: Right. So, but at that time in your 20s, you were both consuming cannabis but not quite aware that it was necessarily treating your condition?

Pam Dyer: Right, I understood that I really liked using it. It made me feel good. It was a stress reliever. It’s… I was at one point in my life just using it all day long. It was just something that I did and I was also working from like 4 o’clock in the morning until 7 o’clock at night. So, it wasn’t like I was feeling lazy.

Dr. Corva: Right.

Pam Dyer: I was just like it is actually helping me. I believe it was helping and it’s just what I did.

Dr. Corva: What were you doing for living?

Pam Dyer: I was working at that time in a fitness club, an all female fitness club, teaching aerobics, teaching spinning classes, personal training, doing outdoor boot camps. You know, it was fun.

Dr. Corva: What was the point then I guess when your… Would you term it like relation, like what would you term that relationship that you had then before it was medical relationship?

Pam Dyer: I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know. If I were to have said at that time, I would almost have said I was addicted to it because that’s how I was kind of told. If you’re using it all the time, you’re addicted to it. So, that’s kind of what I would see my relationship was. I was addicted to using it. So, at this time looking back, I would like to say you know I was moderating myself and it was getting into my day and night and I realized that it was… you know, I knew that it wasn’t harming me, so that was good.

Dr. Corva: Right. That notion of harm is important one here. I think it’s important for listeners the concepts of addiction mean different things to different people, but often it’s treated as… the word is equated to harm, and difficulty here is that like the language we have to describe you know what we are doing, addiction is a habit… a regular habit versus addiction as a disease. It’s important to think about the distinctions. Addiction is a disease. One of the major characteristics is your habitual consumption actually makes you less productive and hurts other parts of your life and you’re compulsively using something or consuming something even though it’s clearly having negative effect on your life and that’s very key part of the definition of addiction that we have to think about here and it’s why Pam can look back and say, “I was using it and clearly being overproductive, holding down the job and so forth.” It’s interesting how many folks are sort of learning what they were doing at this point in their life and then realize what we’re doing with lots of other things, lots of other ways, so we look back and kind of understand it a little better.

When did you become aware of cannabis as medicine basically?

Pam Dyer: When I started having really severe problems, kind of getting up and down of the floor and having problems physically. And I was going back to the doctors and I was really not finding any solutions and it was suggested to me to like why not try it and they hadn’t really followed it as medicinal. So, having… That restarted a whole new relationship with it because then I had to look at it from a different perspective that this isn’t really something that I am using to get high, I am trying to use this to get through my day which before I only knew how to get through my day by being high if I was using it. So now, how do I use it medicinally without getting high was an interesting conundrum?

Dr. Corva: Yeah. So, how did you explore solving that conundrum?

Pam Dyer: Well, I tried every single way possible that you could use it. I have tried… I mean I have tried every singly way possible that you can use it and explored this is what felt good for me. I have tried juicing it, eating it, cooking with it, eating it raw. I have tried suppositories, topical. I have tried… You know, I have tried every single way that you can use it. I have tried dabs. I have done dabs, yeah. So, I feel it really as far as like how do you use it, I use it in all those ways and they all kind of balance each other out and they’re all form.

Dr. Corva: So, what you’re saying is that you’re instrumental about each one that you know… that what you’re looking for is beyond getting high, it’s treating you know muscle spasms?

Pam Dyer: Yes.

Dr. Corva: Or treating your headaches?

Pam Dyer: Right. So, I know that when I raw cannabis regularly, I am having less muscle spasms and if I still have muscle spasms, I can treat those with the topical. And if I am still having problems, I can vaporize a little bit. So, they kind of… they all compliment each other, the different ways of using it.

Dr. Corva: How did you learn about… this is actually something I think that not a lot of people are really aware of, you know, the process of consuming raw cannabis juice and otherwise?

Pam Dyer: I learned about raw cannabis when I was in nutrition school and I had heard a talk from a raw food guru and he said he was in Canada once and he had a raw cannabis salad and it was the most amazing thing and if you ever have a chance to eat any raw food, the most amazing super food is cannabis. And that was the only thing that he said about it but that had like really stepped me because I had just become a cannabis patient, so I was really exploring like how can I find that and it was hard to find but I found it.

Dr. Corva: Talk about that actually. I think it’s a really important thing for people to know about…

Pam Dyer: It is.

Dr. Corva: …that it is hard to find.

Pam Dyer: It is, because I am consuming fresh cannabis that’s either just been picked… or has just been picked. So, unless I grow it myself or I know somebody who is growing it that lives close to me that I can get it from, I don’t have access to it. You can’t get it from dispensaries or from a 502 store. It’s not available.

Dr. Corva: Right. And that fresh cannabis, how fresh are we talking here?

Pam Dyer: To the day or like one or two days, kind of like spinach. You will get it just, you know.

Dr. Corva: No human being can harvest cannabis every two or three days. This is important thing to notice.

Pam Dyer: Right. So, for me to consume like what’s recommended for a therapeutic dosage, it’s also recommended that I be able to grow 30 plants and I mean just to grasp that idea you’re consuming an entire plant and none of that is making you high. So, a lot of people will think that’s crazy actually but it’s one of those things that people don’t understand how much work actually goes into consuming a raw, but it’s really worthwhile.

Dr. Corva: Now, 30 indoor cannabis plants, if they were all harvested at once, we’re dealing what about 15 pounds?

Pam Dyer: I have no idea. Honestly, I have no idea on that.

Dr. Corva: All right. So for now, we will go on what I am saying.

Pam Dyer: Yes.

Dr. Corva: Fifteen pounds… the market value of 15 pounds folks… you know, if you’re in the black market then you’ll it’s 2,000 dollars a pound, which is probably a little estimate for indoor. That’s 30,000 dollars.

Pam Dyer: Well, here is what I’ll tell you. I ate 50 grams of raw leaf this morning… I put it into two smoothies, so it’s two meals. And I mean 50 grams, if we’re just talking about that say 10 dollars a gram is 50 dollars.

Dr. Corva: We’re talking mostly leaf, right, or you’re also…?

Pam Dyer: Yes. I mean I have teamed up with an organic farmer where they are kind of disposing off those leaves anyway. So rather than putting them back in _____13:14, they are actually giving them to me.

Dr. Corva: How important is it that you know your farmer in terms of you consuming raw cannabis, like don’t you need to know you know like if there are pesticides or anything else?

Pam Dyer: Yeah, you want to make sure that it’s organically grown and it’s not been sprayed with anything in its lifetime, so it’s kind of big deal to know who is growing your plants or you grow them your own so you can know exactly what’s on them.

Dr. Corva: On a scale of 1 to 10, how far away do you think the I-502 system is from a situation that you would be able to afford the treatment that you’re taking now?

Pam Dyer: Like 10 being I could afford it?

Dr. Corva: Yes.

Pam Dyer: I would say I met at 1. There is no way I could afford it to pay for my medicine. I consume so much cannabis that there is just no way.

Dr. Corva: And let’s look it as one person and not many people do this, but with the health benefits that Pam is talking about that probably should change and you would expect I think raw cannabis to become part of the wider raw food movements and there will be much great demand in that instance?

Pam Dyer: Well, once it’s legalized and I mean let’s think about goji berries or chia seeds, those are super foods as well and people can take them anywhere but it’s… we’re legal here, so it should be eventually… it’s normalization of understanding that this is simply a food as well.

Dr. Corva: What are the main challenges to come into the point where we can regulate cannabis as food?

Pam Dyer: I don’t know. That’s a fair question. I guess understanding the fact that it’s not just a drug, because simply right now it’s being treated only as a drug.

Dr. Corva: And in fact you’re saying this right now even in oppose to legalize situation in Washington, says what about where we are at culturally right now, where everybody else is basically, because they are thinking about it like it’s a drug and cultural acceptance essentially of cannabis and cananabis’ use and all these new ways that people don’t know anything about, which you’re kind of pioneering in and getting that knowledge out to the public, there is a long way to go I think. But how do we do it, how we talk to people? I want to jolt your memory really quick of yours and all recent efforts down to Pike Place Market and ask you to talk about that.

Pam Dyer: Yes, we went down the Pike Place Market representing Normal Women of Washington and set up a table and a little booth area, and just started talking to people about marijuana… we made different questions. You know, do you have questions about marijuana, do you have questions about cannabis and we changed them maybe once in a while. And for the most part, people would stop in to chat with us a little bit. A lot of people would like go ahead staring and say so signs and walk by, and there are that people who just see what _____16:38 smile and walk by. We got a lot of people ask this where would buy pot, like the stores, yeah. It was an interesting day and it was just interesting more than anything else to see how people’s reaction to seeing the word marijuana, you know.

Dr. Corva: Was there a most surprising part of the day?

Pam Dyer: I don’t know. They were surprising in quite a ways. The fact that people are still open to sitting down and talking to you, they really do, they are kind of… They are people that just kind of want to talk really, a young man to sit down and tell us that he is trying to get off of drugs and… or he is on the drugs and he wants to use cannabis to help him but he is really scared, but he has heard that he can use it in a way that will make him high, is that true, and so we were able to like have a little nice moment with somebody like that.

Dr. Corva: Did you start talking by CBD which…

Pam Dyer: A little bit… A little bit. We just kind of gave him a few tippets for him to be able to keep going. It’s a lot of information to try to pass on to someone in one conversation.

Dr. Corva: Yeah, it really is. It really is. I want to ask you really quick specifically about the nutrition benefits in terms of like you know THCA, whatever vitamin, you know what are you getting from the plant when you consume it that way?

Pam Dyer: We think of cannabis is this food that has… In the plant world, it is super special because it only has protein; it is a complete protein which is very rare in the plant world. And it has essential fatty acids, Omega 3, 6, and 9 in a ratio that’s ideal for the human body. So, those two things right there allow you to consume this plant and have a complete nutrition without having anything else. You’re getting your fat, your protein, and it has got carbohydrates in it. You’re getting chlorophyll with the green. You’re getting all of your vitamins. I can’t name them all. But it’s your… It’s a super food. It’s like spinach, but then you’re getting cannabinoids as well, your CBDA, your THCA. And because it’s in its raw form, you’re able to consume it in a great… a larger portion. You can consume THC in its acid form and a lot more. So, that’s why you can gain greater therapeutic benefits when you’re consuming it in its raw form. For me, it’s kind of like I am filling up my endocannabinoid reserves and when I have enough raw cannabis in my system and say I were to vaporize or whatever, I don’t need to generally use this much because I just don’t need as much, which if I am not using the raw cannabis, it’s like I don’t even have _____19:23 I could say smoke joints all day long and they wouldn’t really make me feel high, sort of.

Dr. Corva: Could you actually tell me does it ever get you high the consumption of THCA?

Pam Dyer: Oh yes, not THCA, but like _____19:40. But yeah, no, I have never gotten high off of raw cannabis and the only time I have ever known anybody to say that they have… I have known a few people let’s say that they like fell asleep after they drink it, which was interesting. But I have never known anybody who said that they felt super high.

Dr. Corva: Right. So, how is raw cannabis different from let’s say someone who makes brownies and decides to put you know raw cannabis in the brownies?

Pam Dyer: Oh, put raw cannabis in the brownies.

Dr. Corva: Yeah. But I have never…

Pam Dyer: Well, if you’re cooking it, as soon as you add heat to it, then you’re neutralizing it and now it’s THC. Right, so…

Dr. Corva: And that process is called?

Pam Dyer: Decarboxylation, yes. So, that’s what we are trying to avoid when we’re eating it raw is that we don’t do decarboxylation. That’s why we want it fresh and eat it as soon as it is picked as possible.

Dr. Corva: Great. Great. I am going to step back a little bit to, how much of a normal person are you these days, like what do you do for living? Does Twicebaked support you or what else do you do?

Pam Dyer: I am kind of normal. I generally work from home. I see a few clients a day, teach the other two and that kind of thing, personal training. I have kept a few clients, but I also work for MJBA Publishing, MJ News Network.

Dr. Corva: Yes.

Pam Dyer: Yes. I help them create contents and I go to their events and… Basically, my job with them is to kind of spread to world what’s going on in cannabis, what’s legally happening in business and what’s going on in Washington and also the rest of the world. It’s kind of an interesting place where people can come to and find a resource, so it’s like what’s going on and it’s chronicling what’s going on around that. We have kind of… I have access when I go to different places that other people don’t have access to seeing what’s going on behind the scenes. So, that’s been kind of interesting. That’s not normal but for the most part, I am on a computer at home and that’s kind of normal.

Dr. Corva: All right. With MJBA, then you’re doing reporting. And anyway, this is new for you?

Pam Dyer: Yeah, I am now the reporter. Now, I am the road reporter as I like to refer myself I guess, but yeah it’s totally new. I just happened to find myself in this place with a little camcorder and why not share this with the world because I have recognized that this isn’t something that other people are seeing and the fact that I am there kind of I am a normal person, this is a normal thing that’s happening. It’s just a different kind of business. It’s a business event. It’s just a cannabis business event, you know what I mean.

Dr. Corva: What is the culture of cannabis business if I may ask? The term is used quite often by entrepreneurs but I guess…

Pam Dyer: Cannabis culture.

Dr. Corva: Yeah. I mean what’s cannabis culture I guess…

Pam Dyer: And business.

Dr. Corva: And business? Let’s just start with cannabis culture.

Pam Dyer: I think one of the biggest things of the cannabis business is that it’s filled with people that have major passion for the cannabis culture.

Dr. Corva: Yeah.

Pam Dyer: And so, I haven’t seen that… you know see that in ton of industries where people are so passionate about their business, they are willing to work seven days a week even though they are not necessarily making a ton of money.

Dr. Corva: Yeah. And that being said, probably on the screen we can’t see that marijuana is safer than unemployment, is that? You wanna get on your tip toes, can we see it?

Pam Dyer: Tip toes.

Dr. Corva: This is an awesome variation of _____23:32 marijuana is safer than alcohol t-shirts. And I really you know like said something very strong about cannabis at a social policy, like actually what we can do is employ people now and that’s something this country needs. We are actually producing a social good and essentially… we are connected to the rest of the society and we need to prevent them.

Pam Dyer: And I mean they ask what about the kids… what about the kids if their parents are unemployed or in jail because of marijuana, yeah.

Dr. Corva: What do you think about that whole… It seems like the question of what about the kids is at the moment the trunk statement that after that like you just can’t say anything. But you just said something and I think it’s really important for people to start actually saying things about that. I mean looking back at your own biography here, you know you consumed cannabis at age 13, you turned out pretty good. Is that an anecdote or is that an exception, the more testimonials we have about people turned out fine, I think better?

Pam Dyer: Right. I wouldn’t say that it impaired my development at all because I was like, I mean theoretically already developmentally impaired. You know, on a physiological level, let’s be honest here, I wouldn’t say that at all. If anything, it helped me deal with different things as I was using it. It’s an interesting thing to get developed.

Dr. Corva: Let me switch topics a little bit here and I wanted to ask you about the Women of Weed. You know, I _____25:21 I think in the past. I don’t mean to… But how important has the Women of Weed you know been to you and other people in it here in State of Washington?

Pam Dyer: Women of Weed has been… is a social club to me. So, they have been wonderful as a place to go and be surrounded by a woman who know exactly kind of what I am dealing with, the topics I am constantly thinking about, and we all have this one thing in common which I don’t have in a lot of my other social circles because I am… Yeah, this isn’t really. I am not of the cannabis culture if I am allowed to say something like that. So, I am allowed to all of a sudden be around this culture of cannabis of women who had been around for years and decades. It’s actually really special to me to be able to have that experience and I have learned a lot from them.

Dr. Corva: I would say that from what you just said that you’re not of cannabis culture, it means several things, but more broadly cannabis culture has been so male dominated and this is more of a thing that I think is great would Women of Weed is actually it’s taking cannabis culture in a much more progressive direction, inclusive direction, so you know I will stop that.

Pam Dyer: Well, it’s been nice to see to how there has been other women groups growing and there is power with having yourself surrounded with female support as a woman. It’s really… It’s power thing. Like women grow and MJBA Women’s Alliance, you know, there are different ones out there where you can find different support that isn’t just a social club. You can actually build on other things that you’re meeting with in the cannabis world.

Dr. Corva: Something just occurred to me actually which is your employment in that female gym earlier in your life.

Pam Dyer: Yeah, right.

Dr. Corva: Is there any sort of similarity in terms of just simply like _____27:24 female space?

Pam Dyer: I guess the similarity is that you’re able to just relax on that level. It’s the level that’s hard to describe unless you’re all female and it’s nice, but within that, the industry… this cannabis industry has brought together a group of very powerful and passionate women that I haven’t experienced. May be it’s because in the other industry, the wellness industry, I always ended up like authoritative figure. But in this group, I am not… It’s like when I am in the room I am not the only human in the room. So, that’s what is much different it is. I am being surrounded by very special people that I guess aren’t there to solve their problems, they are the problem solvers.

Dr. Corva: Elsewhere, outside of say you know the Women of Weed as an example, the civil society kind of space, I have noticed the beginnings of differentiations of interest between the folks who are involved in I-502, folks who are involved in medical in particular being you know… I have been kind of saddened to see kind of some of the way the communication has developed, so you know for the folks who are viewing each other essentially as you know enemies or competition. I guess in the Women of Weed, that sort of thing… Is that like something measured by the fact that we don’t went up here to, you know… we are here to do positive things, I guess.

Pam Dyer: Absolutely. We are here to nurture and support each other. We are not here to break each other down. I have only ever witnessed people that are doing that, so yes.

Dr. Corva: Fantastic. Fantastic. I mean may we all take that to heart really to nurture and support each other and not break each other down. Well Pam, do you have any final thoughts or questions of me or anything you want to add to it.

Pam Dyer: I would like to encourage the world to eat more handpicked if you can get that in grocery store. You can follow me on Twicbaked in Washington on Twitter, Instagram, and Youtube and you can follow me on MJ Headline News, Marijuana Channel 1 on Youtube. And what else can I possibly say. Thank you so much for having me here.

Dr. Corva: Thank you Pam. Thank you, you’re delightful. You’re awesome. Thank you.